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Thursday
Jan152009

Are there any antagonist GMs in the audience? Okay, I’ll speak slower…

I don’t believe that antagonist GMs exist anymore. I think they all grew up, became enabler-GMs, or builder GMs, or gritty-but-fair GMs. But I’m getting ahead of myself. Let’s start by defining what I’m talking about.

 

The antagonist GM generally has overall fun as a secondary or tertiary goal. He sells you leaky lanterns, lawyers up on every rule, and makes every PC plot against his players. He wants your characters dead. He’s me when I first started GMing, and most of my friends, as well. That was the way you ran a game, and somehow it was often fun on both sides of the screen.

 

At some point that changed. I don’t remember when. Maybe we all just became blubbering softies, but I can tell you now that I wouldn’t want my earlier self to run my games. He was a dick.

 

Admittedly, it’s a very good thing to be the antagonist sometimes (maybe even much of the time). After all, leaky lanterns exist in the game world, and the villains really do plot against the PCs. We need that conflict to create tension and rising stakes and buy-in to the game and the story and blah-de-blah. I am NOT advocating for kiddie adventures here. I just think there is, as in all things RP, a balance to be struck.

 

Honestly, I'm pretty sure God would have played with dice. 

Since well before joining the blogosphere with U20 I encountered like-minded people over at the Monte Cook Boards or other players in RL, and it became clear that everyone more-or-less reviles that GM of games past. But, has he really passed on?

 

Now, I’ve learned online that there are many different kinds of gamers out there. (Some of them are still playing the original D&D rules even, you crazies! [insert enormous winking face, even though I really can’t wrap my mind around that]) I’m guessing that not only are there antagonist GMs out there, but that they have players who enjoy that kind of game.

 

Do you fall into either category? Do you know anyone who did, or does? What do you like about that game style? Should I try it?

 

Share your favourite stories about the antagonist GM.

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Reader Comments (10)

My very first DM was like this. When I started DMing, I asked him for advice. He said, "You can either build the dungeon for the players, and play it against them, or build it against the players and play it for them." I suppose a true antagonist DM would both build and play the dungeon against the players, but that sounds like a lot of TPKs.

I usually go for whatever makes the best story. In our current game, that usually means screwing over the players. But I tend to do it story-wise, not mechanically. Sure, you can beat up the goblins that captured your friend.. but that means that your other friend will die from the poison, because you'll be beating up goblins instead of getting the antidote.

January 15, 2009 | Unregistered CommenterSwordgleam

Yeah, I had a couple of DMs like that when I first started playing back in the mid 90s, and to be fair it really was a lot of fun to just focus on outsmarting each other. Unfortuntaly that sometimes turned into sniping or arguments...

Overall, I think that style of DM was bigger in the past, and the "enabler-DM" came to the fore after 3E was released. I like a mixed-style DM, I guess. But I don't really know anyone who plays this way anymore.

January 15, 2009 | Unregistered CommenterGoblineer

I think antagonist DMs tend to get spawned when a gaming group arises spontaneously without coaching or any experienced members, and the new DM hasn't quite realised that killing the party isn't the way that they 'win' the game. They gradually learn a more cooperative play style or else get de-selected from the meme pool when their players desert them.

Most groups these days tend to form around one or more experienced players, I think. So antagonistic DMs are a bit scarce now.

In my early days of gaming in the late 70's most other referees I knew were either Pure Sandbox (typically coming from a wargaming background) or Actively Antagonistic. But then, the players were often pretty antagonistic too. To a certain extent it was all regarded as 'Good Clean Fun'. That's why you never trusted a half-orc Cleric in 1e AD&D - everyone knew they could be a multiclassed as an Assassin and just waiting for the right moment to cause havoc. Seriously, you never, ever let those guys stand behind you.....

I'd call myself mixed-style, I guess. A PC can certainly get killed by the right combination of stupidity and bad luck in my campaign. But it doesn't happen very often.

January 16, 2009 | Unregistered CommenterLurkinggherkin

I know a GM who is actively antagonistic and her players love her, but like every GM style, what works for some doesn't work for everyone ;)

January 16, 2009 | Unregistered CommenterHammer

Antagonistic is probably not the correct term to use: Nearly all GMs are antagonistic - it's part of the job since being a GM means being the opposition or a conflicting situation. If you're not being antagonistic you're play a conflict free game which is not what most groups are doing.

A better term would probably be "competitive" as in viewing the game as a Player vs. the GM competition. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that style of GMing IMO as long as everyone in the group is aware of the situation and wants that style of game. Competition doesn't need to be bad and in many cases is exactly what the players want although they may not be aware of it: The most satisfying challenges are those where we feel something is at stake and when it comes to "traditional" RPG themes, that something is usually our characters' lives.

For example, in most 4E games I run I tell the group right at the start: My job as the GM is to kill you. The hostile creatures you meet are not your friends and you can expect no mercy. The point of this approach, for me, isn't to be a jerk but rather to give the players exactly what they want: A sense of danger and excitement where their very lives depend on their wits, luck, and skill. If you're a GM in this sort of game and aren't out for blood you may as well put your dice back in the bag and play diceless or start fudging rolls to keep the supposed heroes alive.

January 16, 2009 | Unregistered CommenterMJ Harnish

Cool. Good insights, everyone.

Hey Swordgleam, I think you’re right, and while no one needs my seal of approval I think the way you’re “screwing over” your players is a good way to run a game. I also suspect it doesn’t really feel like getting screwed over to the players, and I’m betting it’s your distinction between being the antagonist using game mechanics or using the story that is the most important lesson to take away form this. I’ll be sure to remember that. Thanks!

Goblineer, yes, you sound just like me. The shift from AD&D to 3E was, for me, the turning point in my DMing.

LOL @ the lurking gherkin. Your half-orc cleric story is hilarious, and definitely takes me back to my AD&D days. And yes, the good, clean fun aspect was there for us back then, and I have to wonder if I’m just imagining that things were as “bad” as I imagine they could be, or if, given the proper expectations from the beginning this style of game wouldn’t just be a tonne of fun.

Hammer, come back! Elaborate! What game system? Do they ever fight? Is she the pure antagonist by using the story, or using the mechanics?

@ MJ:

I agree, of course. I hope I didn’t give the impression that I’m a dice-fudging DM. Quite the opposite, and I’ve even established myself several times in much the same way you describe.

“This campaign will always be challenging. If it seems like you should run, then maybe you should. I won’t pull any punches, and I won’t ever bail you guys out unless your characters give me a reason to do so,” and so on. Despite this, over 22 3.5E sessions in my last campaign we only had two character deaths, many close calls, and one totally avoidable TPK. That didn’t stop one of my players from asking me if I was punishing them for something outside the game, though, which was rather insulting...

Anyway, yes, “antagonist” really isn’t the right word, but we all got what I was saying. I appreciate your rundown because I think you're detailing how most DMs feel about challenge levels and character risk

Good stuff.

January 16, 2009 | Registered CommenterRPG Ike

I would agree: I don't think in most games it's to anyone's benefit for the GM to simply kill PCs simply because he/she can. You do run into those types of GMs but they tend to either be jerks or simply don't understand the rules. Obviously game balance is a critical piece of this, and as you mention, appropriate challenge levels are one of things that a GM needs to keep in mind. That, IMO, is one of the best parts of 4E - they appear to have done a very good job defining levels so that a 4th level solo represents a very tough, but fair, challenge to 4th level characters. That makes creating a competitive, yet fair, encounter actually possible. A lot of other traditional RPGs, including past editions of D&D, didn't do a very good job at this and you could easily end up creating an encounter that was way beyond a the characters' abilities to handle even though the #s said it should work.

John Wick's book Play Dirty is a great discussion of how to be a very competitive GM and have your players love you for it. Many people misinterpret John's approach, assuming he just liked killing PCs, but at its heart what the approach espouses is putting the PCs through the wringer, using everything you can against them (including their own family), to put them in the position that if and when they succeed the players end up with a truly gratifying outcome. Ultimately his approach is about doing this through the story rather than relying on individual encounters to define success: Thus it's sort of a "the war is what counts, not the battle" approach.

January 17, 2009 | Unregistered CommenterMJ Harnish

P.S. - I didn't get the impression that you were suggesting GMs should fudge rolls.

However, I do think that the fudging of rolls often starts when a GM tries to avoid "being the bad guy" or sets up a situation where failure will ruin everyone's fun or kill the scenario's progress (i.e., the proverbial "you didn't find the secret door" problem). If you (as in the reader, not specifically the U20 blogger) find yourself regularly fudging rolls to keep players alive or keep things moving, you're either playing the wrong RPG or you're creating conflicts and tasks which are pointless. In RPGs, players should always fail forward - in other words, failure at a task should always create some sort of twist to the situation, an interesting complication, an inspiring moment, or a new challenge. In other words, failure should always be interesting. If you're in a situation where failure will stymie the group or story, then there should be no conflict or roll - success should be automatic.

January 17, 2009 | Unregistered CommenterMJ Harnish

I played a Vampire campaign with a very "me against you" kind of GM (2000 and after). He would do everything to: 1) make his NPCs the 'heroes'; 2) kill/hurt/maim our PCs; 3) never allow any PC to do anything important during the campaign.
The only PC that lived through the campaign NEVER did anything important. He would just stay quiet, even when NPCs bullied him and would do everything that the NPCs told him to do (really, everything, it was humiliating).
All the others PCs died at some point. I lost two PCs, both times right after I outsmarted the GM and did something important. The first time I outsmarted and humiliated one of his favorite NPCs. Later, Nosferatu would appear everytime I did something against the law, till I was hunted, killed and had another PC (the 'survivor') diablerie mine PC (during a session I couldn´t play).
Later, I (with another PC) outsmarted two vampire factions and start to play one against another. Later, the GM send me an e-mail after the session, telling me that my PC was killed while sleeping. "And don´t come to next session". Just like that.
It´s funny now, but I was really angry after the last one.

January 19, 2009 | Unregistered CommenterKimble

@ MJ:

Fail forward; that's some very good advice.

I haven't read John Wick's book, but I believe I run my games with ideas somewhat like his. I certainly don't go out of *my* way to harm the players, but I play NPCs and villains as hard and as merciless as I think they'd be. I'd like my DMs to do the same, as there's nothing worse than seeing that uncertainty in the DMs eyes as he/she rolls damage dice. If you build it, you should have the courage to play it through. A close eye to balance during prep means you've considered the angles and won't need to fudge the dice (ideally).

*sighs* It's just such a balancing act, and we all do what works for us and our players.

@ Kimble:

Good lord, my Brazilian friend! You tell the most terrible RPG stories! That Vampire game sounds awful, not because of the in-game competitive nature ( I think we've established that competition is good, maybe even very good when the expectations are established and when the players enjoy that sort of thing), but because of the out-of-game competitive nature.

I don't blame you for being angry. I would've been livid!

Thanks for the comments.

January 20, 2009 | Registered CommenterRPG Ike

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