Brief Diatribe on WotC
Friday, February 6, 2009 at 10:43AM I was livid yesterday to find out that the Adventurer's Vault 2 has been announced.
RPG Ike smash capitalism! GRAAARRR!
I became angrier as I scrolled past the MM2 and DMG2, and was reminded of the PH2. Once I reached what I feel are the overpriced core adventures from Wizards of the Coast I closed my Amazon window and immeditely did a google search for free downloads.
*sighs* I understand that this is a knee-jerk reaction. I understand that there's a business model at work here, and an old one at that. I imagine many of you have known about these books for some time. But.
Do we really need sequels to core rule books that have been available for well less than a year[Insert interrobang here]
I've decided my answer is no. Despite several readers recommending it to me, I no longer plan to order the Adventurer's Vault or any other print books from WotC for some time.
So, what do you think? Are you annoyed for any of the same reasons, or do you think I'm a crazy person for having the opinions that I do?
Reader Comments (26)
I really understand your POV. You have to decide where to spend your hard earned (or stolen) money. In this case for you it's not WotC. For full disclosure I am not a 4ed player, so I've never had plans to buy WotC stuff. Personally, I'm not sure if WotC even knows what they are doing. In some ways, its funny. Some people claimed for 3.5 you needed too many books. Now you could almost make the same argument for 4.0.
Eh, I've been gaming for more than two decades and this is an old hat for me. Do we need corebook sequals? No (hell, I didn't think we needed a new edition...). Do you have to buy them? No. Vote with your wallet.
I personally like a ton of options, otherwise I'd be spending all my free time developing my own (wait, I do that already). The market must think so too, otherwise it wouldn't have been financially viable over the last thirty years to put out so many books.
I think the root of the issue for those that flinch at supplement releases is that they feel they must purchase every single book that is published but they don't want to spend the money, don't want to learn the new options, or whatever reservation.
Nothing forces you to purchase, use, or even acknowledge the existance of these books, so my question is why do people get frustrated at their release?
Well WotC did announce at GenCon when the books would be published. I do agree with you that they are bringing out content fast (which is great) but you need to pay for it. If you are a player and not a DM get a DDI subscription. All the powers and items from AV & MP are uploaded to the Character Builder at the end of the month. Plus you get Dragon & Dungeon Magazine with the subscription, it eliminates the need to buy the books. If you are a DM then you may need the books to plan your adventures quicker.
Wow. Just, wow. I just cannot get over how often this issue seems to be posted about, and how dumb it looks everytime I read it. Sorry to vent, but I've just seen sooo much.
1) We live in a capitalist country - where people make money by selling things.
2) We are entitled to either a) buy or b) not buy (or c - steal off the internet, but let's not go there quite yet) everything that is for sale.
3) We are expected to be able to decide for ourselves what we a) need and b) can afford.
WoTC is doing absolutely nothing wrong here. In fact, I would argue that they are doing a magnificent job in supporting all the different campaign worlds that 3.5 supported. They are dealing with a huge and diverse population of gamers, each and every one ready to bemoan how "WoTC killed my favorite thing about DnD".
If this was a new hobby, without an established fan base, they could and should release things at a slower pace. Right now, with a fan-base this large and diverse, it's pretty much essential that they release a lot of material fast.
Of course, we're gamers, so we feel this lunatic compulsion to buy the books that come out. And maybe you feel taken advantage of because WoTC recognizes that we are insane and is making money off of it. But that is our problem, not theirs.
It is not culpable to know your client base, and work hard to satisfy them. I sell software myself, and we release very regular updates - does that make us bad people? Our clients pay us for updates, and we deliver. And for WoTC... we (gamers) buy what they put out? Why should they stop? They have a business to run, employees to pay, just like everyone.
I JUST. DON'T. GET. THE. PROBLEM. Perhaps you could elucidate me?
I don't think you're crazy, but I do think you're whining. Nobody's shoving the book down your throat. I myself will probably be the only person alive hosting Series 1 Books (as I call the "First Core") Exclusive games, with nothing but the first books and homebrew. That's how I'm writing my Eden setting and that's predominantly how I play. However, I probably will buy some of the books anyway. Probably not the second Monster Manual, but the second Adventurer's Vault is always nice to have. More treasure's never bad, for me.
So tl;dr I think you're whining for no particularly useful reason, but that's not crazy, it's human.
I can ask only one question here. Are you any LESS angry about the 500 FRACKING thousand books published under 3.5? What about PFRPG and their "Reprint the OGL, and change just enough to avoid lawsuits" approach?
IMO doing it right is publishing three new "core" books per year (PHM, MM, DMG) where everything new is collected into an annual volume.
Doing it wrong was Expanded psionic handbook, that is made completely WORTHLESS by complete psionic. Or how about anyone who bought the 3.0 sword and fist, song and silence, etc only to have them also become completely worthless when the complete series was released?
Also bear in mind that the PHB II in particular, is going to contain all the stuff that people have been wailing and pulling their hair about, when it was not in the first release (Bard, barbarian, druid, half-orc, etc.)
What i am seeing so far is less focus on RELEASE ANYTHING! These idiots will buy it! to a less...market saturating concept.
Take a breath dude, just because it is different, doesn't necessarily mean it is bad :) Though I concede that it DOES happen that way from time to time.
Chill dude, you don't need them, don't buy them! If you play in a group, borrow the books from somebody else. You could all buy different books and share. If you're DM,if your players want to use something out of the new books, they have to buy them, and get you the info a week or 2 before the game; tell them to scan or photocopy the info.
I understand the compulsive desire to have EVERYTHING; I suffer from it myself. Keep it under control! ;)
Worse case, just do what everybody else does and torrent the books LOL. If you like it, and you're going to use it, buy it when you can afford it.
Hey Bonemaster, thanks for stopping by.
You’re hitting on (or at least reminding me of) an important point for me—that a glut of rulebooks at the table slows down the game and can really unbalance things. I’ve been called stupid for using mostly just the core 3.5 books in our ongoing 3.5 game, but I’m really happy doing so, and I seldom even need to reference them because I know the rules. It’s frustrating for me to see players and DMs around the table hunting to find odd rule X from this book and character ability Y from another, and I don’t want to feel that so early in my 4E career.
Hey Michael,
Yeah, I’m sure you’ve heard this complaint a million times before.
Besides my concerns noted above to Bonemaster, I’m frustrated because I want access to that IP, but I don’t want to pay for it. It’s a personal problem, but it is still good to hear a moderate opinion just telling me to vote with my wallet, even if I’ve already decided to do so.
Hey Wimwick,
*Nodding* I’ll think about that. I hadn’t seriously considered a subscription to DDI, but it might be a good compromise for me. Thanks.
@ Wickedmurph:
It’s cool to vent. It’s what I did, after all, to kick this all off. In response, however:
1. I pointed that out in my hilarious image caption. Did you miss it?
2. I pointed that out, too.
3. I decided for myself what I would do. No one’s taking advantage of me—that’s ridiculous.
So, we’re all covered. No need to be hostile. ;)
You’re absolutely right that WotC is a business like any other. I’m not disputing that, and kudos to them for releasing a fine product that has grown its own community of players and ranting bloggers like myself. I’m especially fond of my new DM screen for 4E.
Well, jeeze Wyatt, I’d hardly call a constructive conversation useless. It’s confirmed for me that at least one other guy is going to be running series 1 games.
Thanks, all.
Also, I'm not really hulking out mad, as many of you seem to think. Sorry about that. :) I'm more happy to have made the right decision for me and my gaming.
I hope I don't fall too far behind the bleeding edge of 4E game design by not keeing up to date, though...
Heh heh heh heh. Quit making me laugh, Donny. :D
Yeah, I bought the first Psionic's handbook (what a waste), and I totally gave up on the glut of 3.5 releases shortly after they started being released (although I certainly wanted to own them then, too).
Good point about the PHII. I knew that was the case, but was looking at it more from a perspective of WotC holding those classes and races hostage, rather than including them in the PH1. You have to admit the 4E core books are pretty light when compared to 3.5.
And Tom, I intend to take all of your advice. *takes a deep breath*
Vote with your wallet - and control your habit. This is what I learned from 3.x... and 2.0... and even 1.0 back when I was kid... maybe this time around I've finally managed to Just Say No to buying everything.
Personally, the WotC products are generally decent - but overpriced. The costs for the books are probably high becuase of all the color interior art. Let me ask you... would you buy the AV2 if it was had a B&W interior and was a paperback? How much would you pay? $20? $15?
I would much rather have the books in a cheaper B&W printed format - becuase I don't really spend hours drooling over the art anyway - I only crack them open when I really need them. Its the INFORMATION I want, the OPTIONs, the new STUFF... but what we are paying for is the ART.
Not that art is bad... i own a fair collection of "art books" - just.. $40 for the latest "supplement" is a bit hard to justify - especially when I can get similar homebrew, cool stuff off the RPG bloggins community for free.
ciao!
"Also, I'm not really hulking out mad, as many of you seem to think. Sorry about that."
You DID start your article with: "I was livid yesterday to find out that the Adventurer's Vault 2 has been announced."
Livid is an overreaction, at best, and does make it sound like Adventurer's Vault 2 ran over your dog. Relaxing a bit (just like a few other blogs) and just opting not to buy them seems like a better use of your time. I just don't understand why the company can be blamed for selling books that people want to buy.
BTW -- since you guys here at U20 are "the monster bloggers" - are planning on contibuting to this month's RPG carnival?
Heya Jonathan,
You know, I totally would have bought a B+W AV and maybe AV2 for $15-20 a pop. Like you, I like the art, but don't really want to pay for it. Interesting.
And yes, I do plan to submit to this month's Carnival. I'm running a 6th-level 4E one-shot this weekend (the first of four at 6, 15, 21, and 30 levels), so I thought I'd post the whole 7-8 room dungeon for it. Thanks for the reminder, though! :)
@ Dave,
Well, that's true. I *was* livid yesterday. Now I am not.
Heh, you know, I did miss that. It puts rather a more sarcastic spin on the article, and does render some of my points... redundant.
I'm also going to be running series 1 games, and have since series 1 came out. I like the DM screen, too.
I've got to admit, though, that I download the pdf's off bittorrent and preview them to see if there is anything I need. Normally, I know there won't be - Draconomicon and Open Grave? Not really necessary for me. I really like to homebrew, though. I consider it writer practice.
Also, I totally skipped all of 3.5 (travelling and/or no gaming group), soooo, I might have a higher splatbook tolerance than most current gamers out there. Maybe that's why they seem to bug me less than a lot of people.
glad you saw it wasn't vitriol :)
Luckily for you all, ther totally "modular" concept (that actually works...more or less) is what will make Core I or Core II games doable.
After all, it may be totally acceptable to have a barbarian in the party...less so the machiavellian noble type.
Though, I heard a silly little rumor that A far realm supplement will be released just before the PHB III, which will feature the Alienist as a player class...I don't know about you, but that totally gave me a clue :D
Heya Murph, Welcome back!
Yes to writer practice. I started this website at least in part simply to create words, and game and critter design are huge creative outlets for me, as well. This is a pretty great hobby for creators of all sorts.
*nods* Actually, yeah, I'll bet missing out on 3.5 really did let you skip by what I hope was the worst of the book flood. We all like content, of course, but other than wallet woes I've really gotten tired of the negative effects (all admittedly centered around how the books are used, not the books themselves) that they can present on both sides of the screen.
I think a large part of my frustration is that the PH is so light on certain content, like alchemical and magical items, and completely lacking in others, like the established "core" races and classes. I understand these can change, and indeed they may have, with this new edition, but it does feel a little like the core 4E set was made to be light to sell more later.
*shrugs* But I could be wrong, and do I really want to avoid supporting the game designers who provide me with such a cool hobby? I don't know.
Thanks for handling my snarkiness.
It's all good, I occasionally want to burn paizo publishing to the ground...then I realize how far of a drive it is.
Sometimes you just gotta vent :)
Yep. My gaming budget isn't what it was. You gotta make the right call for your wallet and gaming group. Not a 4e player, so it doesn't bug me, but I don't like having bits of a game I like/consider core (I really like gnomes and bards, sadly) presented over multiple books/years. No worries do. Some folks like a bunch of splats, and if they have the money, rock on.
Now, the issue of not including the "core" races and classes is probably the most interesting part of this whole discussion. Not that venting isn't valid, of course.
I'm not sure that they did neglect any of the "core" races and classes. I've never made a gnome PC. Never even used a gnome NPC. IMO, the gnome was both bland and useless. Want a little sneaky dude, play a halfling. Want a woodsy dude, play an Elf? WTF you need a gnome for?
And the bard? I've had one bard in all my groups. Ever. He was a cool character, but I just don't think the bard was played enough to be "core" in my experience. Barbarian was never a "core" class, either. A case could be made for Druid, but "Nature Cleric" is really what they really always were.
I'm sure there will be a spate of disagreement on that, and I agree that Druid, at least, should have been included in PH1, but I like the new races (after taking some time to get used to them). They each have enough unique flavor to be fun and interesting, and the new classes bring quite a bit to the table as well. I think it was a good idea to try something new, and introduce some new things.
As far as the PH1 being lite on some areas, well, they added some stuff, reduced others and actually provided a DMG that relates to DMing. I'm willing to give them a little leeway based on all that. As for stuff like alchemy and things, I tend to homebrew that anyways.
Cool. I see what you're saying, Murph. I disagree on some points, but that's just preferences talking.
I like the new races and classes, too (well, I'm not sure about the warlord yet, but we'll see once I play one).
Regardless, you've convinced me that there probably wasn't any skullduggery informing the decisions of who to bring in and who to leave out.
Thanks,
Personally, I love spending my hard earned money on my hobby. It feels good to send some money out for a new sourcebook rather than the electric or water bill. Even with sourcebooks from several games, our hobby is loads cheaper than most, and yes, the companies do need to make money.
The model we've seen with 4e is not something that should have snuck up on you, its been announced and discussed by the wotc staff since the beginning of the edition. The core three books set the basics of the system and their sequels expand gameplay.
Nothing "core" was left out anymore than in any other edition of the game. Decisions are made with each edition. Take the half-orc - its in, its out, its in, its out. There was a bit less room for classes this time around because of the powers, so the number shrunk slightly, but the core presented a nice range that covered the roles well.
There is a nice Design and Development article up on the Wizards website where James Wyatt talks about the PHB2, design decisions on the gnome and half orc, and some related topics. It's not a capitalist conspiracy, it's just a sound model of introducing new material in an ordered manner that follows a nice, profitable (hopefully) schedule. AV2? Yes, please. Is there such a thing as too many magic items?
Add a customizable, searchable magic item generation/index tool to DDI and it would be great.
Hey guys. We're doing it again. "This guy posted something and I think everyone else agrees with him, so I need to jump all over him and then maybe the rest of the internet will see that they're being morons!" Except apparently the rest of the internet doesn't.
Personally, I don't understand what possible need there is for a DMG2, and like designing my own treasure enough that I've no use for the Vaults. But I liked Martial Power a lot and hope one of my players picks up a PHB2, and I am all for capitalism. Besides, I like making stuff for games. You think the people at WotC like it less than we do? I'm sure we'd all jump at the chance to publish our homebrew stuff in a big shiny book.
Well, I'm sure that the WotC team was very conscious of what they were putting in and what they were leaving out, but Ï'm willing to bet that it wasn't "to make people buy more books". That's a very dangerous way of doing business, ultimately, and not likely one that any sane company would want to do.
Noooowwwww, the SAN checks over at WotC aren't always successful (Gleemax, WTF? And don't even get me started on Insider - such promise.... such failure). But on the book release schedules and such, I'm thinking they've been OK. You're right about it being largely a matter of preferences, Ike. If your favorites got pushed back, you're more likely to think that it was intentional.
I'm still working on the new classes, though. I love the warlord concept, but it's very difficult to play well - it needs more co-operation and knowledge than some of the other classes. I have yet to see it done really well, but I've seen some flashes of brilliance there. Warlock is tough too, cause my wife plays one right now, and since she's inexperienced, it's pretty uneven. I know if I was playing her character, she'd be downright nasty.
I also agree that the modular design seems to be working pretty well, and I'd LOVE a searchable, sortable magic item database - but then, I work for a company that sells integrated database software. So I'm sorta biased.
Wait a sec.
They announce that they are going to publish a new book, with materials you don't NEED to have to play your game, but which gives you more options if you should choose to buy them.
I don't get it.
Just WHY are you upset?
Please explain this.
I just don't get it.
It you don't want to use the material, don't use the material. You don't NEED the material. It sounds like you don't WANT the material. So just play the game with the books you have.
(On the other hand, I do find the modules overpriced. But that is a separate issue.)
Carl