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« Let's Grow Old Together... and Be Eaten by A Wyrm at the Same Time | Main | The Magic of Nobis »
Wednesday
Jul152009

Hating 4E? Give it one more crack...

I'm not here to convince you that 4E should be your favourite system, but I can say that I've gone from disgust to dislike to having an appreciation of 4E. It isn't my favourite system (I am, in fact, starting a new campaign with three players who are brand new to D&D, and it will likely be 3.5 and then PF), but I'm happy to report that the tweaks/changes I spoke of previously addressed many of my problems with the system and greatly enhanced the last session I ran. The bottom line? We had a great time.

Allow me to describe the session and my strategies.

Dice 'n moss 'n lichen.

And... Scene!

The session was a 22nd-level dungeon 1000 feet underwater—the Temple of Raven Rock was sunk into the ocean by kuo-toa followers of the Tentacled Master 300 years ago. Thanks to the impressive resources of the Company, the established mercenary group the PCs now helm, Raven Rock's location has been discovered, and the age-old fortress to the Raven Queen appears to have been magically sealed against centuries of pressure and the original descent.

The session opened with the PCs entering their oversized apparatus of kwalish and submerging...

Encounter Design and Combat

I made a few drastic changes to all of my critters for this session.

  1. I halved all monster hit points
  2. I added 1/2 the monster's level to the damage it dealt (or +1 per adventuring tier for minions)
  3. I added a +2 bonus to all critter attack rolls (+3 for elites)
  4. I used more minions, or critters that were several levels below the average party level

The Results

Combat was faster, more exciting, and generally more enjoyable for all involved. There was lots of success on both sides of the screen, and the grind I've experienced in every previous 4E session was kept to an absolute minimum. I cringed occasionally (like when my Chuul Juggernaut would crit, for example) but the lessened hit points kept everything nicely balanced.

Let's get kraken.

The Skill Challenge

I described a disastrously awkward skill challenge a session past and was more than a little worried about how this one was going to go. The challenge was for the party to reach their sub (apparatus of kwalish), just 100 feet down an uneven corridor as Raven Rock shook and cracked around them. The occasional high-pressure blast of water or deadly magical forcefield would spring into their path.

I made a few conscious choices about this challenge.

  1. I didn't announce it as a challenge, nor did I announce the number of successes required to reach the goal
  2. I set it up with a very clear goal and made no assumptions about how the PCs would attain it
  3. I rewarded intelligent power/ability use with automatic successes
  4. I asked each player how his character was going to proceed, one at a time.

The Results

The skill challenge went extremely well. There was no second-guessing or awkward explanations. It was all over and done with within 10 minutes, and the same player who had a particularly strong problem with the previous challenge went out of his way to mention how much he enjoyed this one.

Critter Design

I've theorized that 4E is great for "reskinning" monsters seamlessly thanks to the homogenized ability scores and powers system. Love it or hate it, the system makes it incredibly easy to point at just about given monster and tell your players that it's something entirely different. Here are a couple examples of what I mean.

  • I borrowed the statistics from the Yuan-Ti Abomination, described it as having a long beard of tentacles to account for the grasping coils ability, and I had a decent soldier (practically a minion at that low of a level) that worked thematically.
  • I borrowed the Yuan-Ti Anathema, described it as being a squirming mass of suckered tentacles, snapping, dripping beaks, and the occasional round white eye, and I had an excellent elite skirmisher that also worked thematically.
  • I used Gibbering Mouthers and once again described them as being masses of tentacles, beaks, and eyes. At 10th level these guys were almost exactly like minions, but the +2 to hit and their aura made it possible for them to maintain a presence (if minor) in the battle.

Lastly, I was able to playtest not only my Giant Squid, but also my Kraken, and they are both pretty awesome and a ton of fun to run. For the kraken I separated each tentacle around the PCs' ship and treated it like a separate creature (counting the hit points towards a single total, of course).

We're gonna need a bigger boat.

A Note about U20

Several of you have noticed that the blog here is languishing a bit, and you're right—we're busy working on D&D 3.5/PF and 4E projects right now (plus vacations, of course, and our day jobs). I've decided that I'll post something when I really have something valuable to say, rather than forcing a post that you won't read. As a blogging community, we seem especially susceptible to becoming an echo chamber, and I'd much rather post less with quality, rather than more, without.

Thanks for stopping by, and be sure to get your game on sometime soon.

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Reader Comments (10)

Well then, it seems time to bring out another dreaded intenet meme;

YER DOIN IT RITE! FTW :-)

so many people cry about the horrible things 4E does to their mothers and dogs, it's nice to see more folks actually working with it. It's not like any other edition has been flawless, but you play PF and 3E, So I don't have to tell you that :)

Keep that good stuff rolling :)

July 15, 2009 | Unregistered CommenterDonny_the_DM

Mostly what I've done lately is to have encounter powers deal 1/2 damage on a miss, and at-will powers deal a piddly bit of damage on a miss (usually something like 1d4, I don't tell players they're scoring this, I just subtract it from my monsters' HP).

Did you get players constantly aiding-another each other's checks in the skill challenge? That always sort of bugged me, though it's a perfectly legitimate thing to do if you have no idea what you want your character to do otherwise.

July 15, 2009 | Unregistered CommenterWyatt

Heh, thanks Donny. When it comes right down to it, it's still D&D. Do you like killing monsters and amassing wealth, prestige, and power? DO you like roleplaying as/with hundreds of creatures? I do, and 4E still lets me do that, so hoiw bad could it be? :)

Heya Wyatt, interesting solution you have there. A U20 reader stopped by earlier today and posted that he halves the hit points of all the monsters and the PCs. A bit of a hard sell to some players, but pretty elegant in comparison to what I'm doing. I may try it some time.

I didn't have a single aid another action in the skill challenge—it was pretty clear that they all needed to "get to the CHOPPA" (sorry), and when their turns came up they took care of themselves. Aiding another would be especially boring in a skill challenge. I think we were just lucky to have had unique enough characters that they all had their own approach.

July 15, 2009 | Registered CommenterRPG Ike

If you did it and had fun, you did it right. Sounds like a great game.

July 15, 2009 | Unregistered CommenterSean Holland

Not only does it sound like some decent house rules to try, the scenario sounds like a lot of fun! Consider it stolen for my campaign!!

July 16, 2009 | Unregistered CommenterKen Marable

@Wyatt If you are a dnd Insider there are some good suggestions for "The Aid Another Conundrum" at the bottom of this Ruling Skill Challenges post:


Social Skill Challenges, Part 2

Mike Mearls outlines how to use "Higher DCs, Consequences, Limited Aid, and Sustained Effort" to address the problem.

July 16, 2009 | Unregistered CommenterRyan

I am not (nor will I ever be) a D&D Insider, but I do have that article. Thanks for pointing out.

July 17, 2009 | Unregistered CommenterWyatt

This article is old but very relevant to me now. I've finally tried 4E and I've found it's not that bad. There are many good aspects to it, especially for new players that don't have hours to learn a new system. I also like how it's more free flowing than 3.X. It feels less "constrained" and rule heavy, which is exactly what I want.

I like how you've cut the monster HP by 50%. And slightly increased the damage. I've read about cutting the monster HP by 50% in many many places now and I'll definitely do it in any campaign I run. If you have any more 4E advice since last year, I'd really like to hear it.

May 27, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterGoodIdea

Cool. Glad to see you getting some mileage out of older advice (if advice ever really ages in this hobby). I'm afraid I haven't DMed any 4E games for a long time, and I've only played in a few, so I have little to add right now.

4E really has some solid ideas, and I can certainly see the appeal. It just doesn't quite provide the experience I'm looking for in an RPG. I mean, look at Pathfinder's Summoner class—you'll never see the kind of customization and freedom in 4E that you see with the Summoner's Eidolon, for example.

I will freely admit that some people look at that customization and cringe, but I loves it. Anyway, glad to hear you're finding joy in your gaming, regardless of the system!

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